Episode 5

Eric Schneider, Visual Storyteller; Advising Executives on Business Strategy through Sketch Noting

Excited to have my friend Eric Schneider join me for what I hope you’ll agree is a really interesting conversation.

The Narrativ was created to bring interesting people to you who you may not have heard of (or from) before with the common thread of those people being great storytellers.

Eric is a great storyteller, and uses interesting mediums to tell his stories, some of which won’t translate to an audio format.

So, when you’re done listening, go check out Eric’s blog at

 

https://ericschneiderr.wordpress.com/

 

or his LinkedIn profile.


Eric’s currently a consultant in enterprise software and advises executives in using data to bring their customer strategy to life.

 

He started his career in mechanical engineering, shifted to training and selling engineering software, and continued building his career by continual learning and following his interests.

 

That took him to eCommerce, salesforce automation, marketing technology, analytics, and more.

 

Along the way, Eric built an approach to sketching and writing which helps him think, understand problems, and engage others in solving them.

 

He lives in Atlanta with his wife, two sons, and dog.

 

For fun, he enjoys biking, reading, and cooking. If you want to gain 5 pounds by proxy, just go look at the cooking photos on Eric’s Instagram.

 

Eric is fascinating, I think you’ll enjoy meeting him.

Transcript
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Eric, thanks for joining me on The Narrativ I'm

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excited to have you on and no we, at one point talked about

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you being guest number one, you are going to be my my guinea pig

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guest and you offered to do that way back when and

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yeah, I'm excited to be here it's it's been an interesting

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thing to, to listen to, as you've evolved it from where it

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was and where you thought it might be before you had your

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first guest on who I've actually been in a meeting with several

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years before that, which is just a small world thing. But yeah,

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it's great to be here, Jeff,

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it has evolved a little bit. And it's interesting because the

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evolution has happened. You know, as I've said before, the

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thing that fascinates me, the thing that got me to want to do

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the podcast in the first place was the idea of storytelling.

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And the fact that there are people out there, who are really

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good storytellers. And there are people out there who were really

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bad at storytelling. You know, I've spent a lot of time trading

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salespeople and working with other marketing people and other

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people in my career. And I just you can, you know, there are

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people who are good at storytelling and people who

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aren't good at it, and trying to sift through and help the people

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who may not be as good at it, hear from people who are good at

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it. And I think it's not so much just the saying, Oh, I'm just

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going to become a storyteller. I think you have to have a

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backstory of depth to your ability to then take things and

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turn concepts into something. And, you know, we've talked

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about this briefly before, but never in a in a forum like this.

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The the way that you utilize art, even though you're not an

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artist, I mean, I guess you know, any art is art. But you're

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not like a trained artist who browses through a prism to tell

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stories has always been interesting to me. So can you

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kind of talk through like your background, and then we can

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pivot through what you do. And then we can go off on to that

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direction.

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Yeah, and I can add an element of where the, either the art has

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come in, or the storytelling has come in, throughout the whole

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thing. But yeah, you're right. I'm, I'm reasonably unique. And

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the reason that I'm unique is because of really this

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philosophy. I mean, it certainly didn't start when I was a

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teenager, and certainly didn't start my first job, but

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eventually, was telling your own story. And that's what your,

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your life and your career and your relationships are about is

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telling, arriving at that story and telling it in the moment. So

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when I was growing up, my dad loved cars, I love cars. I was

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always good at math and science, and I wanted to be an engineer.

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So I wanted to do design work. And I, you know, went to went,

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got my undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering, did what

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I call either the dumbest smart thing I've ever done, or the

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smartest dumb thing I've ever done, I'd co opt in undergrad,

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which was not the dumb thing. It was a smart thing, because it

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showed me what to do or not do. But I met my wife in college.

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And she was engineer, we had like this, this point, I was six

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months behind where she was because I co OPT. And I wanted

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to catch up to her. So the economy wasn't great. And I got

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my master's degree at Georgia Tech and 12 months, which was

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really ludicrous. It was just, it was not a good decision, but

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it can't even comprehend it. No, but we've been married nearly 30

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years now. So that was, that was the best decision I've ever

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made. Putting it that way. Somewhere in there, I went from

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designing and doing some pretty tough stuff. I worked for a

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pharmaceutical packaging and filming equipment company, we

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designed all these machines that would pick up vials, put them on

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a conveyor belt, fill them up, put stoppers in them, that kind

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of thing. And the company was run by an old Swiss guy. And

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everything was meant to be cam driven. Right, every bit of

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motion in this had to be picked up time you have to time the

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filling nozzle filling into a vial and have it all flowing

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down the line, pick it up and then do the next things. And

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they had no way to design the camps, which meant nothing could

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possibly work. And since I had the most recent, you know,

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mathematical and engineering degree. I did it and I started

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doing it with with spreadsheets. And we had a machine which

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apparently wasn't working well. And I think Philadelphia

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basically was beating itself to death because it would just stop

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and start and stop and start. Nothing was smooth. The company

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got upset, they shipped it back to us. And I fixed it. And it

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was great. But we had loads and loads of machines to go through.

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And I needed something to scale and in the process of that I got

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to buy for myself some really, really expensive software. In

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the process of doing that. I got to tell people who Were trying

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to sell the software. Again, it was not not inexpensive software

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10s of 1000s of dollars, explain it, it was very graphical

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because we're trying to describe how machines move, and then, you

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know, solve it. And I got on with my job from there. But I

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thought, that's an interesting job. They're looking at me

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trying to understand where I'm at, and clarify what they can do

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to help me solve a problem. And that turned out to be my next

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job, when I decided it was time to do something a little bit

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different. That was that just had an insane amount of freedom

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in my in my mind, because it meant I wasn't locked into

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trying to solve the same problem over and over again, it means I

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would have an infinite number of things to solve, and stories to

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tell. So that's where it started and started off doing software

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and writing on a whiteboard and drawing, drawing 3d shapes,

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putting bullets on a whiteboard and talking people through

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concepts.

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Knowing what you do now, and and I think a bit how you do it.

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That initial orientation of actually dealing with process

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flows and the way one element connects to another one and the

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timing aspects. And that that chain of a supply chain, for

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lack of a better term of processes probably has been

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really, really valuable in being able to then go in and be

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consultative to people about how they're creating it's, they're

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creating a non mechanical process, but they're still

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creating things that are very process oriented.

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Right. And to fast forward a little bit from there, where

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I'm, where I went next was still in the software industry, but

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went to the world of business. So a lot of your guests may have

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heard of CRM software, I'm sure a lot of them haven't. But

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anything that a sales person would use to track their deals

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and process their pipeline forecasts of their bosses what

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their sales quota is going to be and how they're going to meet

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it. Contact Centers and call centers and how they take

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customer service. Obviously, it's expanded not just call

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center because nobody wants to wait for a call, they want to

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chat for service or, or go they're really upset, go on

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Twitter and gripe about something, or also marketing and

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analytics, I'll have to do with customer data and customer

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interaction. And that's where I went next to do basically the

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technical side of sales and just got more into databases got into

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web design web pages, more coding that I'd done in college,

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and started to weave stories around it because I got more

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fascinated less, oddly enough with the technology side of it

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and the guts of how everything worked once I got to understand

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how that work, but how that went into solving problems. And how

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that worked into solving business problems. Because

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that's where it all came back to, you get an infinite set of

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variety when you're trying to tell a retail or or

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telecommunications company healthcare company, banking,

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etc. How to go about solving what they needed to get done

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with technology. And then you were in how to weave a story

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around at all? What are their challenges? Has that happened on

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a macro level at a business? How do they report on it, find the

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problems, improve the process? And then how do you go about

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getting there to the end zone as opposed to it just being you

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know, it's just a pie in the sky vision.

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And my you know, my career that which, you know, we've had we

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been in very similar parallel, you know, very adjacent

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industries for a long time. And you know, that that role, that

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role that you just described, to me is like the, it's the secret

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sauce of successful software companies. You know, I not to

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take anything away from marketers like myself, don't

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take anything away from salespeople who have tough jobs.

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But the very best companies I've worked for at the very best

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salespeople I've worked with, have been blessed to have people

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who are good at doing what you just described. Because at the

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end of the day, if I'm a CFO, and you're trying to sell me

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financial software, I don't really care how the sausage is

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made. I have other people in my organization who care how the

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sausage is made. I need to know what your process what your

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software is going to do to solve a business problem for me, and

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how effective it can be. And if you know, hopefully provides me

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a benefit, and it's not very expensive, or it's a cost

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benefit analysis that tells me it's worth doing. That's

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narrative that's storytelling much more than it is, you know,

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this widget connects to that widget and let me drop down the

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drop down menu of 7000 items and show you how I pick one from a

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pick list, which is the bad salespeople and the Bad Demo

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people and consultants. That's what they do. And I shouldn't

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say bad, the less successful ones is probably a better way of

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phrasing it.

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Yeah, for sure. That's it. Almost it ends In starts in a

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problem definition, it ends in what solving the problem means,

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right? You've got to tie those together in some way in there is

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what your solution does. Again, there's plenty of people who

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deal with the technology side of it, or the process side of it.

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There's it, there's business, they work towards some kind of

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solution. And every time, you know, again, for the listeners

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who are not on not in the technology business, or haven't

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engaged in this, anytime you engage in a web page, or you go

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to, you know, you go to Brand X that you've seen an ad for, and

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say, I really liked those shoes, or I really like that, that

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shirt, I think I'm going to go ahead and buy it. And then how

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does that entire process work? From your discovery of the

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product? To doing some research on it to engaging with a website

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or a store? or what have you, and then that's just part of

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reality. And it's creating, it's creating trust? Really, at the

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core of it, it's how do you create trust from the

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interaction of a business with its customers? Or if you're

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dealing with a business as a customer? How do you build trust

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by understanding their problem, letting you know that and CO

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create, that's why it's funny, I've gotten maybe two or three

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endorsements on LinkedIn. At some point, I said, one of my

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skills is inception. If you've seen the movie Inception, where

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you're trying to, you know, the the end goal is to have somebody

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I dia be joined enough that it crystallizes in their mind, they

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pursue it, they think it's their own, when in reality, it's

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something that you've helped them get to Yeah. And when

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you're talking about sales, or when you're talking about just

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conveying information, you need to be able to have that

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emotional connection, and discovery and some vulnerability

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to it to be pointed in the right direction. And when somebody

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starts creating with you, then it becomes something that

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they're buying into just along the way. Yeah, and yeah,

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storytelling.

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Yeah. And, you know, you, you, it's interesting, cuz I just had

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this experience in the last couple of days where, like, a

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lot of software, like a lot of solutions, you have to find a

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person who wants especially something that's early stage,

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something that isn't commoditized, you have to find a

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person who's willing to be take a risk and try something and be

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willing to be out on the tips of their skis, for whatever reason,

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they're looking to advance their own career, they want to be the

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thought leader in their company, maybe they're the visionary in

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the company already. And there's all those different reasons. You

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know, as companies prospect, I fear that sometimes they

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prospect assuming that everybody is like that. And so they'll go

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and throw a very disruptive message, or you can change your

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business message at somebody who's not that way, who doesn't

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have that DNA, and they look and go, Oh, I don't want to change.

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Or I'm not the change agent here, or whatever it would be.

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And you, you know, I tell people all the time, you have to dig

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deeper in an organization potentially find the one who

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thinks the way you think are you who are or who you can do

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exactly what you just described with mind meld together to

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create a story. That's really their story that you're then

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helping with. And then let's help them navigate it further

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upstream. Because especially in early stage things, you know,

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they're used, the term disruptive gets thrown around

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all the time. Not everybody is willing to be disruptive. And

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even more, not everybody knows how to be disruptive. And I

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think it's one of those things. That's it's, it's just an

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interesting thing that you experience where people try to

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do this. I think that a statement you made earlier

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about, you know, each scenario you were involved in, whether it

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was healthcare, retail, whichever industry, they were

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all Greenfield, it was all a different way to approach it.

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The problem was, the problems might be very similar, but the

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approach might be very different. And the tendency is

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to say, here's the pitch, Go show the pitch. Here's the demo,

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Go show the demo didn't work. Nope. Okay, move to the next

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one. And they don't think it's the most you know, and I try to

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tell people all the time, you got to be more consultative. And

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I think what you're describing is being really consultative.

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Yeah, it is. It's about building someone not, not one size fits

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all. And if it's, if you're selling a product or marketing a

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product into a space, trying to understand and know where it

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fits, is every bit as key as the product message because you're

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trying to build that connection with somebody. And you need to

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know who your target audience is. That's just to a certain

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extent, the way of doing things. It's also your point about

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change. reluctance is also very real. There's times when

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somebody in their career does feel like they can or should be

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disruptive. And they're, they're trying to get a personal When I

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did it at a certain point, my career and I actually, very

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often have done it every four years, something like that,

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whether it was being an engineer to work in an engineering

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software company to work getting a customer relationship, company

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or business that, you know, sold a certain set of products to, I

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really want to be involved in the strategy of how that goes to

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market just pivoted every once in a while. When you're in a

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place where you're not ready to pivot, then, you know, you're

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going to get reluctance. Yeah. And not everybody is at those

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tipping points at any point along the way. There's a lot of

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times when I'm working with customers, and they're like,

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tell me what other companies like me are doing. And the real

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disruptors and the ones you can stop and make them think, again,

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are the ones who are learning about something that happened

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from outside their industry entirely, a different business

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model, a different approach to something. And it's

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revolutionary.

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Yeah, I remember back in the day, when I was at tea leaf a

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long time ago, and we were first starting, you know, ecommerce

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was reasonably new. And I went to an event. That was a very

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retail focused event. And I ran into three or four people. The

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first day I was there who were from banks person from Wells

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Fargo, person from Bank of America. I thought it kind of

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odd and part of me thought, well, you know, the banks,

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obviously, they're doing financial back end stuff for the

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retailer. So maybe that's why they're here. So I was at a

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reception, having drinks and sidled up to one of them and

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just said, so you know, why are you even here? And the guy looks

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at me and goes, we're not good at E commerce. This is like

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2004 2005, because we're not good at E commerce. But

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retailers are. So we're here to learn from them. Like he goes, I

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could care less what other banks are doing, because none of us

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are doing it very well. Retailers are way ahead of the

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curve. That pendulum might have swung a little bit actually

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since since that time, but it was really interesting to hear

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it from him that he was one of those people that you're

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describing.

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Yeah, absolutely. There's, it's, there is a pendulum effect. And

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if you think about touchless, touchless transactions, there's

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plenty of places where those industries come together. And

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that's another piece of it. That was another big pivot in my

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career was, was working at a company, my company had been

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bought by a very large software business. And then they bought

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another customer service company, they bought an E

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commerce company, they bought an analytics company, and everybody

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was still in their lanes, everybody was thinking, I'm just

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marking, or I just do contact center software. And I just got

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to a point where I said, you know, I really think we need a

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role that's going to talk about the entire customer experience.

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Because that little, that little blurb I gave where if you're

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interested, you're curious, you go to a store, you look at the

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website, you buy something, it gets shipped, it gets delivered,

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you try it on it, that's just typical. And it crosses so many

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different boundaries, I'm still the same person. But it touches

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so many different lines of businesses within that retailer,

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or that financial services company. And that kind of

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storytelling, and that kind of transformation really does draw

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from a lot of different places I've drawn, drawn a maturity

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chart for one line of business, and then you can take almost the

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same exact thing and apply it to another one. And it's completely

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revolutionary, they see it in the same lens that they're used

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to seeing it. You know, it was marketing, and now it's service.

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Yeah. And there's channels for marketing, and there's channels

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for service, but they interpret it with an entirely different

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point of view. And it means something either very similar or

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very different, but they make it their own. And what's part of a

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good storytellers job is to be able to make that translation.

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So pivoting back to where we started at the the thing that

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drew me, as I said earlier, into really wanting to share this

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story with with the listeners is of seeing the way that you've

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utilized art in drawing, doodling almost it's a it's

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it's, it's I don't even know how you would describe it. But I

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think that, you know, in times that I hear people talking the

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way you're talking about how they're going to go in and share

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a story like that. Their first thought is, what slides from our

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slide labor library, am I going to use? Followed by and then

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what are we going to demo them? Because that's just the way

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software sales calls are always happened. And you know, I'm, you

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know, I'm as guilty as anybody. I'm the guy that builds the

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decks. I'm the guy you know, and I was the guy that used to build

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the 40 slide decks and I build the five slide decks and say if

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you can't say it in five slides, stop saying it and I'm curious,

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like, can you help people you know Plain how you're utilizing

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things beyond that, to help articulate the storytelling,

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because people are so visual, they like looking at things we

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can you and I, people are listening to this, if they could

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see the diagrams and the drawings that you do, it would

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probably make more sense to them. Because we're very visual

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human beings

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wild and crazy idea. I've got my own drawings on LinkedIn. And

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that's because I started approaching things from a

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graphical way of trying to do just depiction of, of narratives

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on my own. And I got more interested in it. Sure, people

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have heard of sketchnoting. And that type of thing before where

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it's basically graphical meeting notes or graphical depiction.

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Again, very, very good global, plenty of books on it, I've had

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recommended to me that I just found a way of being able to

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take ideas and concepts and then relate them, draw them around

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each other. And what happened was traveled an awful lot, I'm

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sure, you know, you did the same thing is I, when I first got my

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first iPad, looking at somebody else, while I was stuck on a

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tarmac, they were flipping through something on an iPad,

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like I could do a lot in my spare time with that. I could do

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a lot while I'm sitting on an airplane, I could do a lot while

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in between meetings. And then I, I want to use an iPad

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differently. So I did it. And I started drawing, I learned more

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about sketchnoting, I learned more about diagramming. And I

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started thinking about that. And I started experimenting, I

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started doing internal meetings with content that I drawn. And

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you know, when you lay out a 40 slide deck, you do it with an

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outline, you start, you should start with an outline first, the

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worst things that you see is when you go to a meeting, and

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it's like, what should we tell the customer? I've got this

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deck, and I threw all these great slides in it. And it's 167

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slides long, and you just you know, your mind explodes, right?

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Yeah, what's the story? We're gonna tell? Yeah, let's start it

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out. Let me draw it out for you. Let's build an outline. And

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let's fill it in with the right content. Macko s and iOS lets

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you mirror an iPad on to or just even use Zoom or something like

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that natively mirrored on your laptop. And there's there's

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great drawing apps that you can use to, to sketch things real

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time and have a co creation session. And I really started

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doing that internally at my job to draw concepts together, I

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would show something to somebody walk them through a narrative, I

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got to the point where I did complete presentations with it,

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it's actually really funny, if you want to bring these two

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together. In my mind, one of the handful of best meetings I ever

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had was the interview for the job that I have today. And the

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process for it was went really quick was happen to have the

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right connection, who knew the right person who was hiring,

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like everything came together really quick, and didn't really

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necessarily have time to build up, you know, a complete

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presentation from scratch, to interview for this job. So I

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took a, I just took a major swing for the fences. And I

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pulled together a bunch of mostly drawings from a little

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bit of work. But a lot from my personal blog, that just said,

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these are the kinds of things I value as a people person, you

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know, as a person. This is what my messages to people, these are

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how I work with other people, and did my interview from that.

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And it just, you know, if for people who are watching, I've

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got a whiteboard behind me with some sketches and drawings and

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either doodles or graphs on it. And it just starts meetings

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right at the start. Sometimes when you talk to somebody new

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and they say what is behind you, it's a way to build immediate

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interest.

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Yeah, I think, you know, there's, there's a couple things

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that jumped out at me with it. And I'll try to be concise about

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it. So one is you know, I'm that classical marketing guy that

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used to really care about how things looked. I was like brand

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mattered and the way we present ourselves mattered. And we got

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to have the right slide template. And I have evolved and

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I still those things still matter to me, but they don't

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matter the way they used to. Because I think all of that it

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doesn't none of that matters if you don't have the right story

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in the right message, right? That's just that's just putting

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lipstick on a chicken if you have the right you know, or

Unknown:

lipstick on a pig if you have the right. Don't have the right

Unknown:

content. But what's really interesting, I think the thing

Unknown:

that jumped out at me is about it being a leap. A greater leap

Unknown:

is and for those who can see on the whiteboard behind Eric or

Unknown:

the Blackboard behind Eric that you know you're not you while

Unknown:

you've spent time crafting how you want to communicate. It's

Unknown:

not like you're sitting down and going I'm going to create

Unknown:

precise, graphically perfect images. I'm To illustrate a

Unknown:

concept for you, and I'm going to illustrate a concept where

Unknown:

I'm not an illustrator, but I'm going to use this mechanism to

Unknown:

do that. And, you know, it's much like when I started, the

Unknown:

podcast is, you know, I ideated for on it for a long time, and I

Unknown:

couldn't get out of my head that it has to be perfectly produced,

Unknown:

because the ones I've listened to are perfectly produced. And

Unknown:

then I stepped back and said, Okay, there's four and a half

Unknown:

million podcasts in the world, and like 50 of them are probably

Unknown:

perfectly produced, and the other four and a half, you know,

Unknown:

zillion, are done by someone like me. And it doesn't have to

Unknown:

be perfectly edited, it doesn't have to have perfect sound

Unknown:

mixing, it has to be compelling content. And if that is

Unknown:

compelling, people don't really care about the other stuff quite

Unknown:

as much. And I think there's a shift in general, you know,

Unknown:

there was this idea of user generated content. It's a kind

Unknown:

of user generated content, where, you know, you're telling

Unknown:

a compelling story, and probably very much differentiating

Unknown:

yourself in these meetings with prospects. Because no one else

Unknown:

is doing that everybody else is walking in with their 167 slide

Unknown:

deck, that they presuppose the narrative and have no

Unknown:

flexibility or agility in that meeting, to pivot off of the

Unknown:

agenda. It's like, I can't show you what's on slide 142, because

Unknown:

I have 141 slides I have to get through first to set it up.

Unknown:

Right? Yeah, totally. And that's, again, it's, it's

Unknown:

another way of depicting both a framework for a conversation,

Unknown:

which, you know, you could make an a bulleted list, you could

Unknown:

sketch down on a piece of paper, you could sketch on an iPad,

Unknown:

whatever, you know, use a shared Google Doc, whatever, it's just

Unknown:

a different way of depicting it. And when you make that

Unknown:

accessible, then it becomes something that people can can

Unknown:

step into. It makes it makes the whole conversation more

Unknown:

excessive.

Unknown:

How often at the conclusion of a meeting, did someone say to you,

Unknown:

Hey, can you send me that stuff? Can you give me the the content

Unknown:

that you just created? Is there a way that I can get access to

Unknown:

it?

Unknown:

If it's, if it's something I'm creating, like that, really,

Unknown:

pretty often, I probably do honestly, less of it a little

Unknown:

bit than I used to the company I'm at right now is much more of

Unknown:

a pixel perfect branding company. But at the same time,

Unknown:

what I've had to do inside the pandemic is do things virtually,

Unknown:

that are very quick and very engaging, because I would do,

Unknown:

you know, I would do workshops that had anywhere from 10 to 30

Unknown:

people in the room and facilitating it. And you have to

Unknown:

be a little bit more nimble. And you have to be a little bit more

Unknown:

flexible, to be able to capture everything that you would in

Unknown:

that kind of environment that would took, you know, maybe took

Unknown:

four hours before. And nobody does that on online these days.

Unknown:

Everything is more condensed and more nimble, that the way that

Unknown:

you capture information and do it logically, yeah, people

Unknown:

absolutely want it. But at the same time, if they just stepped

Unknown:

up to it and said, You've laid all that out for me right now.

Unknown:

But I don't know what that means. Because there's not the

Unknown:

investment. And there's not the co creation or the inception for

Unknown:

that matter, either. Right?

Unknown:

I've got to think just to pivot off of that, that the even the

Unknown:

concept of I can imagine if you're doing that kind of an

Unknown:

inception meeting, or an ideation meeting in a room with

Unknown:

people where you can read the room. Like, you know, if

Unknown:

something's resonating and something's not zoom, isn't

Unknown:

conducive to that necessarily, it's really difficult to

Unknown:

actually read the room and to get people's attention. That had

Unknown:

to be a bit of a shift to in terms of how you went through

Unknown:

that process in terms of is this resonating? Or am I just sitting

Unknown:

here, you know, doodling in the wind? Literally?

Unknown:

Literally, yeah, you're you're right. And that's a co creation

Unknown:

is really the name of the game when it comes to doing these

Unknown:

kinds of zoom meetings, you can, again, for the people who are

Unknown:

listening, you can tell where I'll pause, or Jeff will pause.

Unknown:

And then we'll pivot the conversation back and forth

Unknown:

between each other. You have to be able to take a pause. And,

Unknown:

you know, not put somebody on the spot. But say, What do you

Unknown:

think about this? Tell me more. Tell me more about does this

Unknown:

idea work for you? Or do do we need to go in a different

Unknown:

direction. And if it works great. What's the next thing

Unknown:

that's that's on your mind? And if you're doing that with a with

Unknown:

a large den stack where you have to, you have to get from way at

Unknown:

the bottom to way at the top in order to be able to build a

Unknown:

story. If they say no, or you need to shortcut it, and you're

Unknown:

more focused on how to give that presentation and build that

Unknown:

narrative. And it's inflexible, then it's going to stand a much

Unknown:

greater chance of falling flat.

Unknown:

Yeah, when I've told people you know, in years and years and

Unknown:

years of helping to train and equip and enable salespeople and

Unknown:

other people, even if someone has 167 slide deck, which if

Unknown:

somebody told me I was going to a meeting and they were bringing

Unknown:

167 slide deck, I probably murdered them before the

Unknown:

meeting, and I been in prison a long time ago. But that's a

Unknown:

whole separate discussion. But you know, even if it's a 25

Unknown:

slide deck, my guidance to people all the time was, don't

Unknown:

learn the slides learn the content, like what's each slide,

Unknown:

each drawing that you do, if you do a drawing, there's a concept

Unknown:

behind it, you're trying to tell a story or a component of a

Unknown:

story? What's the component of the story? And does it have to

Unknown:

be sequentially told? And if you learn all those pieces of

Unknown:

material, and you're in the room giving the meeting, and the

Unknown:

projector breaks, or Zoom goes down? Or your you know, your

Unknown:

laptop fizzles out? Can you still tell the story without

Unknown:

having to say, oh, and now I need to go to the next slide.

Unknown:

And if you can, then you know, to me, that's the ultimate, you

Unknown:

know, just like learn the content, learn the concepts and

Unknown:

be able to craft them together, which I think is an area that a

Unknown:

lot of people who even really good presenters struggle to get

Unknown:

their arms around, they think in a very sequential fashion. And

Unknown:

they think in a very, you know, slide as guideposts as opposed

Unknown:

to slide is like, I never talked to the slide, I talked about the

Unknown:

concepts of the slide the slides up there, we can read the slide.

Unknown:

Like, I don't need to read the three bullets on the slide, you

Unknown:

can read that. And if you can't read them, I'll read them to

Unknown:

you. But you know, it's just

Unknown:

yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting. My, my boss has got

Unknown:

a concept, as simple as it needs to be. Which I just, I just

Unknown:

love. There's the point of proving yourself, enough

Unknown:

credential yourself. And you can pretty often tell if you're

Unknown:

savvy, when there's depth behind what somebody is saying, or if

Unknown:

it's buzzword bingo, yeah, there's some times when you just

Unknown:

know, alright, you're gonna check these seven acronyms off,

Unknown:

whatever, again, whatever line of businesses or whatever

Unknown:

buzzword it is. And if you're talking to somebody like that,

Unknown:

then there's nothing there. And you can just tell it, and it's

Unknown:

really, you can tell when there's depth again, I'll go

Unknown:

back maybe to another meeting, but I was facilitating this

Unknown:

account planning session. Did one in the morning 20 plus

Unknown:

people, there was a big whiteboard. I'm leading the

Unknown:

meeting. I hadn't been at the company all that long. And, you

Unknown:

know, didn't know everybody. Right? It's very clear. We're

Unknown:

doing introductions. And the lady across the table from me,

Unknown:

gives her position. Right? She's, you know, I'm Tiffani

Unknown:

Bova. And you know, this is my title, and it was like, I don't

Unknown:

mean any disrespect. But I don't know what that means. And I got

Unknown:

the sense that, I don't know what that means, for a very

Unknown:

deliberate reason, can you tell me a little bit more. And, you

Unknown:

know, she's a brilliant person. And it was, you know, she's got

Unknown:

a, basically kind of a visionary, a large position in

Unknown:

my company. And it's very much a position where you can tell when

Unknown:

you have that presence, and you talk to her, you know, it's a

Unknown:

three or four word title, but it's not a buzzword title, it's,

Unknown:

you know, mine says director on or senior director, like, you're

Unknown:

there to be a thinker, and you don't need to credential past

Unknown:

that, let's go ahead and move with the assumption that we're

Unknown:

both smart people into a conversation and be able to go

Unknown:

where you need to from there, and that doesn't necessarily

Unknown:

always require vast amounts of content, it requires enough to

Unknown:

be able to post on either side of the screen for

Unknown:

so you've you mentioned your blog, which I've obviously been

Unknown:

reading for years and years and years now. And I think it's

Unknown:

where I first was exposed to your to your art and and and the

Unknown:

writings and just recently, you blogged I think it was last

Unknown:

week, maybe just some of the things that are going on with

Unknown:

anti semitism just in general the way the way people are

Unknown:

treating and I kind of want to pivot to there. It's different

Unknown:

from the business discussion. But you know, for for those

Unknown:

listening who who aren't aware, I am Jewish, Eric is Jewish. I

Unknown:

would say that Eric is more Jewish than I am, because I joke

Unknown:

all the time that the level of my Judaism was, you know, my, my

Unknown:

mom made a ham on Easter Sunday.

Unknown:

I mentioned, you know, values up front building trust. And I

Unknown:

think that those are, those are challenging concepts right now

Unknown:

when it comes to tribalism. Because I've personally seen,

Unknown:

you know, there's lines, it feels like there's lines that

Unknown:

shouldn't be crossed, and it feels like each time one gets

Unknown:

tested, and it gets slipped past a little bit, then we've got a

Unknown:

problem. Right? And it gets from something that seemed really far

Unknown:

out there to something that you see every day. You know, I still

Unknown:

go back maybe maybe a good example is You know, the

Unknown:

Charlottesville unite the right rally that led to, you know,

Unknown:

started with Tiki torches and chants of you shall not replace

Unknown:

us Jews will not replace us and ended in somebody getting, you

Unknown:

know, plowing their car into a crowd, you know, which was

Unknown:

extremely tragic. And the explanation of good people on

Unknown:

both sides never really. It didn't sit well with me then.

Unknown:

And I understand that there's people who were, who were there

Unknown:

for different reasons, I get that there's people who were see

Unknown:

something going on. And the idea that, you know, sure people

Unknown:

carrying a torch shouting Jews will not replace us. That's bad.

Unknown:

But somebody who's defending a statue of a civil war general

Unknown:

who fought to preserve slavery. That's not necessarily a good

Unknown:

thing, either. Right? Right. And those two, those two ideas are

Unknown:

very tight. They're tight together. And if you look back,

Unknown:

again, without doing a bunch of other research and background

Unknown:

I'm going to talk about here Isabel Wilkerson's cast talks

Unknown:

about the Nazis learning from America, how blacks were treated

Unknown:

and slavery to set the stage for what they could or couldn't get

Unknown:

away with at a global scale when it came to World War Two. And

Unknown:

now we've got Tucker Carlson talking about replacement theory

Unknown:

and saying, f the ADL, the anti Defamation League, who is

Unknown:

Jewish, primarily Jewish, led anti hate organization. And it's

Unknown:

the same language, it's the same people are out to replace you

Unknown:

and replace your vote the we are America, they are not America.

Unknown:

And that it's very dangerous.

Unknown:

Yeah, I've had a, I completely agree. I've had a an interesting

Unknown:

experience this week. Um, I won't call anybody buddy out, or

Unknown:

call anybody out by name. But I have a former coworker we worked

Unknown:

together a long time ago for an Israeli company. He's Israeli,

Unknown:

he lives in Israel. We're friends on social media, I

Unknown:

haven't been in the same room with him in 20 plus years. So

Unknown:

throughout the pandemic, you know, I've stepped back

Unknown:

dramatically from my social media, use social media to

Unknown:

promote this podcast, really, and post pictures of my dogs

Unknown:

once in a while, my grandkids. And I'm not really engaging much

Unknown:

I'm trying not to because it's just toxic for me. So,

Unknown:

interestingly enough, the other day on Twitter where I follow

Unknown:

him on Twitter, because Twitter somehow, in my mind isn't as

Unknown:

toxic as other channels, which is just insane to think about

Unknown:

another now that I'm thinking it through. But he posted something

Unknown:

the other day on Twitter, essentially saying, good for

Unknown:

you, Joe Rogan. Don't let Neil Young cancel you. And so I

Unknown:

reached I reached out to him on Twitter, and we went back and

Unknown:

forth. And it was fine. It was a good discourse. It wasn't

Unknown:

anything nasty or anything but his perspective he he was

Unknown:

echoing these terms that have been completely misappropriated,

Unknown:

like the woke mob, which is a term that's been completely

Unknown:

misappropriated from black culture, and has now turned that

Unknown:

around to the woke mob is trying to cancel Joe Rogan. And I said,

Unknown:

Well, you know, it's not the woke mob. I said, what people

Unknown:

are complaining about Neil Young is complaining about his Rogen

Unknown:

has been consistent with giving a platform to people who have

Unknown:

been sharing COVID misinformation. And he, of

Unknown:

course, came back and said, but he's given a platform to people

Unknown:

who aren't sharing COVID misinformation. And I said,

Unknown:

well, but there's not degrees of this. It's kind of the same

Unknown:

thing. You were just saying about that. There are people at

Unknown:

that rally, who were not there. Chanting. But it's not an

Unknown:

equivalency. And we were going, we went back and forth. I said,

Unknown:

actually, you know, in my opinion, Neil Young wasn't doing

Unknown:

anything canceled. Culture wise, Neil Young did a business

Unknown:

negotiation, he went back to a business supplier and said, Hey,

Unknown:

I don't agree with your business practices. So I don't want to do

Unknown:

business with you anymore. And it's either me or him. And they

Unknown:

said, Well, we pay him $100 million. And you he's more

Unknown:

important to us for what we want to do the the new are, so we're

Unknown:

gonna choose him. And Neil Young said, Fine, I'll take my

Unknown:

business elsewhere. And I think that, that that happens every

Unknown:

day in business negotiations. But as we were going back and

Unknown:

forth on it, it was amazing to me the level of tribalism that I

Unknown:

saw in the conversation from someone who's not in the US,

Unknown:

because that hadn't been there in these conversations for me

Unknown:

before. And it's scary because I'm seeing this from somebody

Unknown:

you know, when I start to see that level of tribalism that

Unknown:

we've had here, which is bothersome now going out across

Unknown:

other borders, not to say that Israel hasn't always been very

Unknown:

Tribal place, but it was this particular example and it was

Unknown:

just it was just the far right playbook. It was false

Unknown:

equivalencies. It was all those things that just scare me from

Unknown:

it, you know, from where we're going standpoint. You know, I

Unknown:

hate the discourse it was I at the end of it, I'm like, I can't

Unknown:

believe I did. I took the bait to engage in something I should

Unknown:

have just let it go was no skin off my nose. I saw him post. You

Unknown:

know, I could I could have just shrugged and said, Yeah, so Neil

Unknown:

Young can do whatever I'm gonna move on. I couldn't let it go

Unknown:

for whatever reason, and of course, got into a toxic

Unknown:

conversation. But

Unknown:

to avoid toxic conversations, which can be difficult. One of

Unknown:

the harder things I think I've found is finding good, honest,

Unknown:

open conversations. The Joe Rogan ones really interesting.

Unknown:

Actually, over lunch, I read read up case by Roxane Gay in

Unknown:

the New York Times, she took her podcast off of Spotify. I'm a

Unknown:

Spotify customer. And it was just an interesting question of

Unknown:

is it censorship? Or is it curation? And who do you want to

Unknown:

do business with? I don't, I don't, nobody really thought

Unknown:

that Spotify was going to take down Joe Rogan, who has got a

Unknown:

rumored 100 million dollar deal over however many people they

Unknown:

vary to the detail No, of overlap of audiences, even, you

Unknown:

know, how many people are listening to Neil Young, or to

Unknown:

Joni Mitchell? It's a question of, to a certain extent, support

Unknown:

and also honesty of conversation. And do you want

Unknown:

to? You want to support it? I don't pretend that me. You know,

Unknown:

and I'm in this debate now with my, with my kids, because we've

Unknown:

been on Spotify for years. Like, it's not gonna make any

Unknown:

difference to Spotify, whether we stay or go, Yeah, I'm still

Unknown:

gonna listen to Brene. Brown is exclusive there too, and stopped

Unknown:

publishing for a little while. I wonder what the the equivalency

Unknown:

is, I wonder how that bounces up against my personal values? And

Unknown:

do I think that Spotify is answer of, I'm going to put a

Unknown:

warning label for content on anything to discuss is COVID. is

Unknown:

sufficient because to me, it feels like a cop out. Because I

Unknown:

could have Person X interviewing person why and it being? Neither

Unknown:

one of them is experts, and neither one of them is having a

Unknown:

good conversation that is based on data or personal experience

Unknown:

of physicians. Or could I listen to, you know, Andy Slavitt, he

Unknown:

used to be some response team. I mentioned my time there. And

Unknown:

also worked on the COVID response team for Biden,

Unknown:

interviewing a scientist or a government official that's doing

Unknown:

things based on fact, those are not the same thing.

Unknown:

Yeah. So it was interesting part of the conversation that I got

Unknown:

into with my friend over in Israel, and conversation so bad

Unknown:

way of framing it the Twitter discourse we were having, he

Unknown:

subscribes to the idea that a Rogan is just a critical

Unknown:

thinker, who likes to bring on lots of different people from

Unknown:

lots of different viewpoints and talk to them and learn. Now, I

Unknown:

would argue that when you have a platform that has 200 million

Unknown:

listeners, which is what it supposedly has, that's

Unknown:

dangerous. And so I tried to go back to this friend and say,

Unknown:

Well, if the person he had on was a Holocaust denier, or a neo

Unknown:

Nazi supporter, would you feel the same way? Would you say,

Unknown:

yeah, he deserves, you know, Rogan's a critical thinker. So

Unknown:

he's going to have a Holocaust denier on and give him an

Unknown:

audience to 200 million people, 2 million listeners a month to

Unknown:

just share information because he's a critical thinker. I said,

Unknown:

you would be outraged if that was the case. And he's like,

Unknown:

Yeah, I would be outraged. To which I then went back and said

Unknown:

he's had those people on Rogan has had those people on and in

Unknown:

fact, Spotify themselves, when they signed the contract with

Unknown:

him, whitewashed those episodes off of his previous podcast,

Unknown:

before moving the catalog over to their platform. So they full

Unknown:

well know that there's problematic content that can be

Unknown:

there. It was just interesting that like, when it came, and of

Unknown:

course, you know, as we all know, it's in you know, COVID

Unknown:

has become so politicized. But it was interesting that somebody

Unknown:

you know, who directly affected by the Holocaust as we all

Unknown:

should be, or have been, shouldn't be, but have been,

Unknown:

didn't see that there was a connection like that, that they

Unknown:

know that the plot, there's a responsibility of it, whether

Unknown:

it's, I don't think it's censorship. I think it's

Unknown:

curation. I can have anybody I want on my podcast, I also have

Unknown:

common sense to know who I want to give a platform to, even

Unknown:

though I have a little tiny platform. And I can't imagine,

Unknown:

you know, Rogan, has the same ability at exponentially greater

Unknown:

ability than I do to do that same thing.

Unknown:

Sure, and, you know, I absolutely agree and the the

Unknown:

idea of learning more, there's actually a little sketch behind

Unknown:

me that's got a couple All things having to do with ideas

Unknown:

and the more you're exposed to the more sources you get that

Unknown:

are good quality sources, then I think that makes your thinking

Unknown:

yourself as a person deeper. But you have to feed that with the

Unknown:

right kind of content. And it's tricky. It can be tough and I

Unknown:

think it's even tougher. Now. Garry Kasparov had a tweet and a

Unknown:

quote, I heard him on a couple podcasts, probably back in

Unknown:

2015 2016. It said the purpose of modern propaganda is the

Unknown:

annihilation of truth. And particularly with COVID, we have

Unknown:

seen that if I, I'm just going to believe, who I want to

Unknown:

believe that backs up my my own thought, my own messaging. In

Unknown:

reality, something like a pandemic is not static. The

Unknown:

approaches to control it shouldn't be static, it

Unknown:

shouldn't be okay. We should lock everything down until it

Unknown:

all goes away, or we've all gotten vaccinated. We're all

Unknown:

free. There's, it's not a black and white. thing. It's it's all

Unknown:

shades of it's all shades of gray. But if you don't have

Unknown:

trust in it, then you can't guide yourself and your decision

Unknown:

when you go through even in this discussion that I was having

Unknown:

with my friend. Well, maths guidance has changed. Yeah,

Unknown:

because the science has changed. We've learned more. We didn't

Unknown:

know anything in February of 2020. We didn't know anything.

Unknown:

We're now in February of 2022. We know a lot more. The number

Unknown:

of vaccines, you're going to hear the number of boosters and

Unknown:

things has changed. Well, yeah, the virus has evolved. You know,

Unknown:

it's amazing to me that just there's this view that polio was

Unknown:

a one time thing we learned what polio was we gave a vaccine for

Unknown:

it. Everybody got immunized, they got herd immunity, and

Unknown:

suddenly polio was gone. I don't think most people expected that

Unknown:

that was actually what was going to happen here. I think people

Unknown:

are hopeful that might happen here.

Unknown:

Honestly, at the start of it, I was really skeptical about the

Unknown:

virus or not the virus but about vaccination. Because, God, I'm

Unknown:

certainly not an MD. And I'm certainly not, you know, not a

Unknown:

chemist and a biologist. But I've known in the past that it

Unknown:

takes years and years for most vaccines to be developed. Polio

Unknown:

is, you know, it's obviously not maybe it's completely eradicated

Unknown:

now, but it took decades. In a global scale, a global pandemic

Unknown:

is something that's different, and why there was the thought

Unknown:

that we would have a vaccine for the Coronavirus within 12

Unknown:

months. That didn't make any sense to me. So I listened to

Unknown:

more I found more more source of information on it. And people

Unknown:

were hopeful, hopeful that you would get something with 50%

Unknown:

efficacy. And we're blown away when some of the vaccines came

Unknown:

out that were 90 Plus,

Unknown:

I remember having conversations in March, April 2020. With

Unknown:

people maybe even with you about you know that there had never

Unknown:

been a successfully deployed vaccine against any Coronavirus

Unknown:

ever. So what gave us any confidence that there would be

Unknown:

one quickly for this one. At that time, I didn't realize

Unknown:

that, you know, Maderna had been spending 20 years developing

Unknown:

mRNA behind the scenes that was able to be adapted into this,

Unknown:

you know that. So, you know, we've all learned but the

Unknown:

shocking part to me has been the inability in the one instance

Unknown:

that you would want to say, Everybody just needs to get in

Unknown:

the boat and row the same direction, the inability, and

Unknown:

it's because that dissolution of the truth that you talked about,

Unknown:

you know, goes back to it goes back before this. But you know,

Unknown:

the biggest example, that I think was a pivot point was the

Unknown:

day after Trump's inauguration, when Kellyanne Conway stood in

Unknown:

front of an audience and said alternative facts as the

Unknown:

spokesperson of the White House, you know, that that shifted the

Unknown:

narrative from you saying, Yeah, we trust the White House. To be

Unknown:

honest, that was the point that said, you know, what, they're

Unknown:

not interested in being honest. Honesty doesn't matter.

Unknown:

Yeah, agreed. And everything from there becomes a litmus

Unknown:

test. And it only takes I don't know, again, I'm trying, I tried

Unknown:

not to go there that much with the, with the discussion about

Unknown:

vaccines and efficacy, etc. But if one team is not going to play

Unknown:

good faith arguments, and you know it, and they're going to do

Unknown:

it in your face, then you have a test, right, you have a test of

Unknown:

loyalty and a test of, of logic, and are you okay with that? Or

Unknown:

are you not? And every time you say, Yeah, I'll go ahead and

Unknown:

give that a break. And I'll sign up for it. And you're not

Unknown:

checking that based off of both a gut feel as well as trying to

Unknown:

find good quality information as opposed to finding something you

Unknown:

agree with. Then you slide further away from relying on

Unknown:

good faith arguments. And it's it's difficult I would want

Unknown:

there to be an easy solution. I don't know whether it is I have

Unknown:

a couple of questions. I've been asking people I know that you

Unknown:

were really excited about the fact that season one I was

Unknown:

asking people to give me their their three out questions of

Unknown:

movies, books and things because you're as well read and well

Unknown:

viewed as anybody in I want to three or four wrench by saying

Unknown:

I'm not doing that anymore. But we can do that if you want to. I

Unknown:

can I can, I can throw, I can throw you that bone and let you

Unknown:

have that one. But are there things we all have them? So just

Unknown:

is there a? Is there a big regret or a big do over that you

Unknown:

wish you could step back and say, Man, I would do that I

Unknown:

would do that differently.

Unknown:

I don't think I have one. That's a big life regret that I wished

Unknown:

I'd done differently. The good, I don't know. Just reading

Unknown:

example, you mentioned it. Matthew McConaughey is

Unknown:

greenlights book, which was I think out in the last year just

Unknown:

was him thinking about, okay, I ran this hard, I did this thing.

Unknown:

And I ran through a brick wall, I learned from it, or I did this

Unknown:

and nobody said no. And it's what I want to do. So I'm going

Unknown:

to go ahead and give it a green light, I would say the regrets

Unknown:

are not really evaluating what the possibilities are, and

Unknown:

understanding where to where to take that I've always been not

Unknown:

always, but through most of my career, I've been an individual

Unknown:

contributor. Part of that it's because of I've kind of

Unknown:

evaluated that I still haven't moved into a management position

Unknown:

in my current role, potentially looking at ways to do that. But

Unknown:

also, I take what I really like out of leadership, and I work it

Unknown:

into how I interact with different teams. So I would say

Unknown:

your, your regrets are when you really mess something up that's

Unknown:

retrievable, and irrecoverable versus learning from it, and

Unknown:

taking the best information that you've got, and really what you

Unknown:

like and what you're good at, and being able to use that to

Unknown:

take into the next set of decisions that you make, or the

Unknown:

next path. You take.

Unknown:

Last question, Who inspires you?

Unknown:

Who inspires me and my kids inspire me? I'll put it that

Unknown:

way. My wife inspires me my, I look at my kids right now. And,

Unknown:

you know, they're both in college, one of them's about to

Unknown:

graduate just orders cap and gown, which is just wonderful.

Unknown:

My younger one is, is you know, it's funny, he's doing

Unknown:

mechanical engineering, which I did, he's at Georgia Tech now

Unknown:

where I got my master's degree. My older one is graduated

Unknown:

computer science grade two, and my wife has any of this on them

Unknown:

at all, but just the way of critically looking at the world.

Unknown:

And trying to is so far beyond where I was, when I was, you

Unknown:

know, 20 plus or minus it just worlds apart. It really gives me

Unknown:

you know, the nice feels it gives me I did some things right

Unknown:

and helping them put them on the path it doesn't necessarily

Unknown:

agree with me, but that they can find a good way. Yeah, and I

Unknown:

believe me, I've messed up doing things with my kids too. I've

Unknown:

had conversations where I've looked at it and gone I

Unknown:

shouldn't be doing this. I'm going about this the wrong way

Unknown:

and will apologize it's not it's nothing wrong and apologizing to

Unknown:

your kids if you know you messed something up and they have

Unknown:

something to teach you to if you think that only your pure set of

Unknown:

people are that are really good to listen to now. Black Jews

Unknown:

Yeah. Find yourself some black Jews on Twitter listen to

Unknown:

Michael Twitty. Listen to some some rabbis and get their

Unknown:

opinion. Yeah, right some of this is obviously historical and

Unknown:

what what Nazis view the world as but it's also how the Jewish

Unknown:

people view the world. And when you add race to the mix, that's

Unknown:

that's another angle. Find somebody with intersectionality

Unknown:

who can help bridge the gaps because that could be religion.

Unknown:

It could be age, it could be race. It could be nationality,

Unknown:

like you were talking about. Life is a Venn diagram. How

Unknown:

about that for for closing? a Venn diagram

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About the Podcast

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The Narrativ
A podcast about storytelling, and the stories behind the storytellers.

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About your host

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Geoff Galat

Geoff has spent his entire career leading go-to-market for major enterprises such as Mercury Interactive, Luminate, Tumbleweed, Tealeaf, IBM, AGT and Clicktale as they transform or adapt to new market trends and opportunities.

In addition to many speaking engagements, Geoff is expert in public and analyst relations, and has been a frequent interview subject on marketing and customer experience topics. Geoff has been a frequent author on customer experience, marketing and business topics, holding ongoing columns at Digital Doughnut and Econsultancy and contributing to Forbes.