Episode 3
Constanza Roeder, Founder: Hearts Need Arts; Childhood Leukemia Survivor; Humanitarian; Singer
Constanza Roeder is the founder and CEO of Hearts Need Art: Creative Support for Patients and Caregivers and host of the podcast Arts for the Health of It.
As a singer, adolescent leukemia survivor, speaker, and thought leader in the field of Arts in Health, Constanza is on a mission to humanize healthcare through the arts.
Constanza is the recipient of the 2018 Graceann Durr Humanitarian Award and was selected as one of the Top 100 Healthcare Visionaries by the International Forum on Advancements in Healthcare for 2021.
Her work has been featured in various publications such as ThriveGlobal, Authority Magazine, Ticker News, National Association of Teachers of Singing, and the cover of MD News Magazine.
Constanza has a powerful, touching story and I think you’ll enjoy meeting her.
Transcript
stanza, welcome to the narrative podcast. Really
Unknown:appreciate you joining me today.
Unknown:Thanks for having me. I love the whole premise of this podcast.
Unknown:And I'm, I'm happy to be here.
Unknown:Love for you to share with my listeners, your mission and what
Unknown:you're dealing with hearts need arts, and the whole background
Unknown:there. And then we'll pivot back to how you got there.
Unknown:Okay, um, yeah, so I'm the founder and CEO of hearts need
Unknown:art, creative support for patients and caregivers, and are
Unknown:artists, musicians, writers, and go into healthcare spaces to
Unknown:work with patients and caregivers, to ensure really
Unknown:that no one suffers alone when they're dealing with a life
Unknown:altering health challenge. So we do that through bedside music,
Unknown:concerts, and bedside art activities and bedside, those
Unknown:art activities often turn into like window painting, painting
Unknown:the windows of our patients. So that like real quick, sorry,
Unknown:I'll just, I'll add some stories as we go along. There is a
Unknown:patient recently who was just diagnosed and our artists,
Unknown:Hannah went into work with her, and her husband was there, and
Unknown:they were talking and getting to know each other. And they told
Unknown:Hannah that, hey, we were actually supposed to be on this
Unknown:Caribbean vacation. Like right now, we were supposed to be on a
Unknown:beach, but instead, we're here in this hospital. And so Hannah
Unknown:painted a tropical beach scene for them on their window in her
Unknown:hospital room, where she's going to be for several weeks while
Unknown:she starts her treatment. And, you know, the arts have that
Unknown:ability to take us out and give us well, we can get all into
Unknown:that. But anyway, I just I just love that story. I think it's
Unknown:really cool. And then of course, bedside writing as well to help
Unknown:people tell their stories. And the whole goal isn't to produce
Unknown:really wonderful pieces of art, but to invite people into the
Unknown:process of expressing themselves creatively, which in itself is
Unknown:beneficial. It is healing, engaging in the arts, reduces
Unknown:pain levels, and anxiety and depressive symptoms. It's a
Unknown:catalyst for human connection, reducing loneliness, these are
Unknown:all things that are detrimental to our health and negatively
Unknown:impact patient outcomes. But so often they those issues go
Unknown:unaddressed in health care spaces, especially with adult
Unknown:patients, there's a lot more resources for pediatric
Unknown:patients. But we specifically work with adults. And we work
Unknown:with some teams as well, but mostly adult patients to provide
Unknown:this type of support.
Unknown:It's interesting, I have a friend who few years ago,
Unknown:unfortunately lost his six year old son to pediatric brain
Unknown:cancer. And he started his own foundation, you know, obviously
Unknown:a devastating thing for any parent to go to. And he started
Unknown:his own foundation and did a bunch of things does a bunch of
Unknown:things to raise money for pediatric cancer research. And
Unknown:part of it was the I, when I found out was how little funding
Unknown:there is for pediatric cancer research as a comparison to
Unknown:other things. But as you're saying, with the resources, he
Unknown:part of their foundation actually started a group, their
Unknown:foundation was called the Pabla Foundation. And there they
Unknown:started a group that's called Pavlov Shutterbugs, which is
Unknown:equipping the kids with cameras, so that they could express their
Unknown:art, they could develop, you know, they could photograph
Unknown:their surroundings, they could do whatever and kind of teach
Unknown:them how to express things visually, that are probably
Unknown:meaningful to them, you know, so that there you'll see pictures
Unknown:out of a hospital room. But you'll see a picture on a park,
Unknown:you'll see a picture of a beach. It's just interesting. But it's
Unknown:interesting to hear you say that there's resources because it's
Unknown:almost the reverse. There's resources for kids, but there's
Unknown:not a lot of funding, but there's art no art resources.
Unknown:For adults. It's
Unknown:there. Yeah, there is this imbalance where there's a lot
Unknown:more research being done with on adults, which some of that is
Unknown:just because it's there's a lot more hurdles to go through to
Unknown:enroll children and medical trials and for good reason,
Unknown:because they're a vulnerable population and their specific
Unknown:structures in place to protect them. There's structures in
Unknown:place to protect adults as well. But yes, there's a larger number
Unknown:of adult patients that are enrolled in clinical trials.
Unknown:There's also a larger number of adults that have cancer, but the
Unknown:vast majority of supportive resources go to support this
Unknown:small number of pediatric patients and is it okay if I
Unknown:start weaving in my story? Absolutely. So I'm, I'm a, I'm a
Unknown:adolescent leukemia survivor, and there was so much there were
Unknown:so many organs and people that wanted to, like, do stuff for me
Unknown:and give me stuff and do things that it was kind of
Unknown:overwhelming. And wonder, like, so grateful, right? Yeah. But
Unknown:also was a little bit overwhelming. Because I think
Unknown:sometimes giving us this services kind of this two edged
Unknown:sword, we generally all get there because we're, we have
Unknown:discovered some sort of need in our own lives that we want to
Unknown:close the gap for. And so sometimes, but sometimes people
Unknown:stay in that area where they kind of have, we kind of get our
Unknown:ego wrapped around giving, where I need to give this to you to
Unknown:fill this void in myself. And sometimes that stops us from
Unknown:asking the question, Am I really helping? Am I really addressing
Unknown:a problem that really needs to be addressed? Am I really
Unknown:utilizing resources in an impactful way. And I've felt as
Unknown:a receipt on the receiving end of that it feels kind of icky.
Unknown:Because you can kind of sense that you're not really here for
Unknown:me. You're here because you need to, you need me to perform for
Unknown:you and say like, oh, yeah, thank you so much. Oh, my gosh,
Unknown:like, anyway, so I experienced that as a pediatric leukemia
Unknown:patient. And going back a little bit, I, I grew up in Santa Cruz,
Unknown:California, I'm the oldest of five kids. And I was
Unknown:homeschooled for most of my school years. And then when I
Unknown:was 13, I was diagnosed with leukemia. I went through 130
Unknown:weeks of chemo. And I've been cancer free since 2002. So I'm
Unknown:revelations for nine years, actually, my nine year end of
Unknown:treatment anniversary is oh, I just had it and I didn't like do
Unknown:anything.
Unknown:That's a good sign, though. Right? Well, you busy. That's
Unknown:right. That's
Unknown:it. Yeah, but it's not so prominent in my mind anymore. I
Unknown:mean, 19 years, like, anyway, anyway, so um, went through
Unknown:treatments, I went on to study music and psychology in college,
Unknown:and met my husband, he was in the Navy, he got stationed in
Unknown:San Antonio, Texas, where we are now. And after we got married, I
Unknown:moved here. And I wanted to do something to kind of give back
Unknown:to the cancer community. And I found out that we have one of
Unknown:the largest inpatient oncology units in all of South Texas, and
Unknown:really this whole region. And I was like, Great, that sounds
Unknown:like a great place to start. So I started volunteering. And I
Unknown:had never been in an adult hospital before much less than
Unknown:an adult oncology unit. And I was like, huh, this is a little
Unknown:bit different than what I'm used to. It was there and there were
Unknown:no activities. And there were very few. Like there was always
Unknown:when I was in the hospital, there were always people coming
Unknown:in and out of my room trying to cheer me up and give me things
Unknown:and like, which, again, is great because we it's really important
Unknown:that people don't suffer alone. And yet, so many of these
Unknown:patients were suffering alone. And so many of these patients
Unknown:had family members that lived hours away that could not afford
Unknown:to take a day off work in order to come and stay with their
Unknown:loved one. They had to keep working in order to pay for the
Unknown:medical bills in order to keep the medical insurance. And so a
Unknown:lot of these patients weren't much older than I was when I
Unknown:finished treatment. And it was I'll use the word horrific, it
Unknown:is inhumane. What we do to to patients. There's a study a
Unknown:while back about where they took a group of rats and they
Unknown:injected them all with with cancer, which Thank you rats for
Unknown:your sacrifice. Yeah, for science. But they split them
Unknown:into two groups. And in one group, they put rats in
Unknown:individual cages by themselves. And in the other group, they
Unknown:kept them in kind of a communal rats Wonderland. And they
Unknown:measure tumor growth, tumor growth over time. And the rats
Unknown:that were isolated. Their cancer grew at a significantly higher
Unknown:rates than those that were in community.
Unknown:Interesting. And what do our hospitals
Unknown:look like? Look like these little boxes that we put people
Unknown:in and when we don't address the whole person. medical outcomes
Unknown:aren't as good and the their patients aren't as compliant
Unknown:with with their health care providers because they're scared
Unknown:and they're lonely and they can't make as good decisions for
Unknown:their health. So I saw all of this, and I knew that it didn't
Unknown:have to look this way. And I did the only thing I knew how to do,
Unknown:which was saying that always helped me when I was in the
Unknown:hospital. And so I started just going room to room and singing
Unknown:for patients. And it was incredible to see the
Unknown:transformation that happened just by providing this small
Unknown:gift of beauty and human connection. Because that's
Unknown:really what the arts are. They're, they're a catalyst for
Unknown:human connection. They help us connect in a deep way with
Unknown:ourselves with others with our Creator. That's how the arts
Unknown:have been used across across time. And it was so impactful.
Unknown:And since this is a storytelling podcast, I'll tell you the story
Unknown:that really kind of the inciting incident for me to start my
Unknown:organization. One of the patients I was working with, her
Unknown:name was Gracie and she was a young adults, patient and young
Unknown:adult, or the a YA, the adolescent and young adult
Unknown:population is actually one of the most at risk demographics in
Unknown:cancer right now. And it's 15 to 39 year olds, we're talking
Unknown:about the rate of enrollment in clinical trials that this group
Unknown:has the lowest representation of in clinical trials, so their
Unknown:prognosis aren't as good in their cancers behave
Unknown:differently. And and it's a complicated time of life to have
Unknown:cancer. And so anyway, I met Gracie, I think the day after
Unknown:she was diagnosed, and when I went in her room, she was
Unknown:sitting on her bed, just huddled up in a ball, just really flat
Unknown:effect. Wasn't like, barely looked up. But I came in. And I
Unknown:went in and I introduced myself and I said, Hey, would you like
Unknown:to hear some music today? And she said, No, I'm not really an
Unknown:artsy person. I don't really listen to music even. And I was
Unknown:like, okay, that's fine. Like, I'll be here next week. If you
Unknown:want it then great. But as I was leaving, she stopped me. And
Unknown:she's like, well, actually, I think if you know, a Christian
Unknown:song, I might like to hear that right now. And so I sang
Unknown:his is on the sparrow. And I know he watches me. He is. And I
Unknown:know he watches me.
Unknown:And as I think of the verses of the song, this, like, calm came
Unknown:over the room, and I watched the tension slowly release from her
Unknown:body and tears come to her eyes. And when I finished she looked
Unknown:up and just said thank you. And that was it. And I got to work
Unknown:with Gracie a lot because she lived in the hospital with us
Unknown:for about six months. While she was in treatment, the way her
Unknown:her insurance was if they discharged her, her insurance
Unknown:wouldn't let her be readmitted. So she had to stay in the
Unknown:hospital for the entire length of her treatment, while her
Unknown:family was far away. And so she was alone a lot in the hospital,
Unknown:but her I know. It's awful, right? Absolutely. So but her
Unknown:favorite day was Wednesday because I would come and sing
Unknown:for her. And we had a group for young adults who would get
Unknown:together and share stories and music together. And it was
Unknown:really wonderful. And but finally she went to remission
Unknown:and she got to go home and we were really excited for her. But
Unknown:her cancer came back just a few months later, she had a fairly
Unknown:aggressive form of leukemia. And so she was back in the hospital
Unknown:as soon as I found out she was there I rushed to her room and
Unknown:and expecting devastation because this is like the worst
Unknown:nightmare for cancer survivors that coming back. Yeah. This
Unknown:time I found her sitting on her bed, smiling. And she's like, Oh
Unknown:my gosh, stanzi. I'm so glad you're here. I have I want to
Unknown:show you something. And she pulled me over to her bed and
Unknown:she rolled up her sleeve. And there on her arm was a brand new
Unknown:tattoo that she had designed herself of a sparrow. And she
Unknown:said, I'll never forget that first song you sang for me. And
Unknown:I know now that no matter what happens, he's watching over me.
Unknown:Wow. Right so I cried for like three days. Like what do you say
Unknown:to? Um, and that's and I want to say like that's not a testament
Unknown:to like, oh my gosh, I'm so amazing. Like she got a tattoo
Unknown:of the song. Like that's a testament to the The Divine holy
Unknown:love that moves through us when we show up in heart spaces for
Unknown:people. I didn't do anything, especially spectacular. I just
Unknown:showed up for her in that space. But
Unknown:going back to the point that you made early on, you know, you
Unknown:came in with a heart to help her, as opposed to just showing
Unknown:up to perform. You were right. I mean, so she and I think that
Unknown:that resonated to her that you weren't. And who knows who else
Unknown:might have showed up at some point prior and came in to
Unknown:perform for her. And she intuitively read that but you
Unknown:came in and didn't do that. You said, If you don't want to hear
Unknown:me sing, I'll leave. Yeah. And that's something for me. So
Unknown:it's an important I'll get to that in a second about like,
Unknown:kind of how we train our artists for this work, because it's,
Unknown:it's different than you might think. But yeah, that that
Unknown:floored me, of course. And unfortunately, they we weren't
Unknown:able to get Gracie back intermission. But before she
Unknown:went home on hospice, she called me in a room again. And she
Unknown:like, grabbed my face. And she was like, we need more art, and
Unknown:music, and writing. And we need more reasons to get out of our
Unknown:rooms and out of our isolation, because we need to remember the
Unknown:reasons why we are alive. As much as we need the things that
Unknown:are keeping us alive. She made it very clear that while she
Unknown:appreciated that I was there once a week that it was not
Unknown:enough. And that she she knew that there were 1000s of
Unknown:patients that were going to come after her that needed more of
Unknown:this. And how do you argue with that, I figured out how to start
Unknown:a nonprofit. Because I didn't know how to do art, music, and I
Unknown:didn't have time and space to do all those things. So that's when
Unknown:I started my nonprofit in 2016. And now, because of Gracies call
Unknown:to action 1000s and 1000s of people have been impacted by the
Unknown:arts by this, this woman who doesn't really artist didn't
Unknown:really think of herself as an artist or didn't really even
Unknown:listen to music that it changed her that profoundly and now has
Unknown:gone on to change 1000s of lives.
Unknown:That's an amazing story. I am I have a son who's now 28. And
Unknown:when he was 11, we found out that he had a brain tumor. And,
Unknown:you know, it all turned out great. It turned out that he it
Unknown:was cystic it wasn't cancerous. They didn't know that until he
Unknown:went into neurosurgery two days later a day later, and had it
Unknown:taken out. And they were doing pathology in the operating room
Unknown:and running out and telling us and and he was living in
Unknown:Tennessee and I had just moved to Georgia. And just that was
Unknown:225 miles and he was in the hospital for a couple weeks.
Unknown:That distance was so hard as a parent, even knowing that his
Unknown:outcome was a good outcome. He didn't have anything there was
Unknown:nothing malignant about what he had. It was just recovering from
Unknown:surgery. And and then I experienced with my dad, my dad,
Unknown:I grew up in California not far from where you grew up my dad
Unknown:had had, he had a couple different forms of cancer, and
Unknown:unfortunately passed away a few years ago. But he was in
Unknown:Southern California. I was out he I live in Atlanta. So I was
Unknown:in Atlanta. And so and he was my mom was gone. It was just him.
Unknown:And I couldn't be there. And he you know, he would he wouldn't
Unknown:even tell me sometimes when he was in the hospital, because he
Unknown:didn't want to bother me. He didn't want you know, he didn't
Unknown:want me to worry. You have your own life to live. I don't want
Unknown:you to worry. But I think now as I'm hearing you describe it, I'm
Unknown:just It hurts to imagine that him sitting in this very
Unknown:clinical area by himself because I was the only real family close
Unknown:by as he was suffering like this without anybody really providing
Unknown:him joy or insight other than what he would see on television.
Unknown:And it's such an amazing thing to think that you're able to
Unknown:fill that void for people.
Unknown:When you're not you hit on something really important that,
Unknown:you know, a lot of times the focus is very much on the
Unknown:patient, but cancer illness, it affects the whole system and
Unknown:affects professional caregivers. It affects the family members,
Unknown:siblings, you know, uncles, aunts, you know, whoever is
Unknown:connected to that person is affected and what we hear a lot
Unknown:so all so all of anyone that's in the hospital has access to
Unknown:our programs, no matter who they are, where they are in that
Unknown:triad. But what we hear a lot from our family caregivers is
Unknown:how relieved that they felt that when they couldn't be there or
Unknown:when they were burned out and had nothing else to give or no
Unknown:other energy to entertain or maybe lift their spirits like
Unknown:they're just we're dry. Yeah, that our artists were there to
Unknown:help to fill in that gap. Like you said,
Unknown:yeah, that's I mean, I luckily we had a close friend of my
Unknown:dad's who my wife and I are still good friends with who
Unknown:lived nearby and she would go and visit him. And not even not
Unknown:just when he was in the hospital, she helped take care
Unknown:of him for many years at his home, but you know, like, it was
Unknown:so difficult, being away being remotely Apple thing, and I was
Unknown:worried about him. But I was also dealing with the emotions
Unknown:of it myself. And it was it's, you know, I just can't imagine
Unknown:that with something in a more severe way, or a girl like that.
Unknown:And then I'm thinking, as you're talking about it, I'm thinking
Unknown:about, how's it been the last couple years when like, couldn't
Unknown:like, you couldn't even go in the hospital to a certain
Unknown:degree, right? I mean, it's gotten, I mean, I've counted my
Unknown:lucky stars that I haven't had anybody in a hospital. During
Unknown:this pandemic, my mother in law fell and broke her hip at the
Unknown:beginning of the pandemic in and she was in a nursing home, where
Unknown:actually was one of the first places a rehab facility after
Unknown:she broke her hip, one of the first places that that got hit
Unknown:with a wave of COVID in February of 2020. Luckily, she was fine.
Unknown:But you know, we were isolated for her, my wife couldn't go see
Unknown:her, her brother couldn't go see her. And I just think that what
Unknown:you're describing then added on to this pandemic, and the fear.
Unknown:And the isolation had to be even worse.
Unknown:Yes. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty awful. We kept in contact. So
Unknown:we, we were our program was suspended, along with everyone
Unknown:else's programs in March of 2020. And couldn't go in at all?
Unknown:Well, I think the back we were able to go with special special
Unknown:permission, we were able to go in near some of the staff
Unknown:entrances, and we painted murals for the staff during the
Unknown:beginning of COVID, to kind of boost morale, but we couldn't,
Unknown:you know, be on any patient units. Patients couldn't leave
Unknown:their rooms, no visitors zero. Staffing was low, because they
Unknown:were being pulled in all different directions. It was, it
Unknown:was awful. And there are some there are some patients that we
Unknown:worked with before that were in the hospital all the way
Unknown:through, that just described how, how horrible it was. And
Unknown:it's interesting now, you know, at the beginning, like we didn't
Unknown:know what we were dealing with, we didn't know how to treat it,
Unknown:like it just was a mess. So, you know, drastic called for drastic
Unknown:measures. But when I talk with hospital administrators, now
Unknown:they, they're like, huh, we're not going to go back to that
Unknown:ever. Like, it's too it has too much of a high cost on, on, on
Unknown:patient outcomes. Actually, ironically, that, you know, in
Unknown:trying to protect them. We, we worsened their outcomes in a lot
Unknown:of ways. So that, like broke our heart, the whole pandemic, but
Unknown:we we, in two weeks, we had redesigned all of our programs
Unknown:to be virtual. So everything was on our website. So anyone that
Unknown:could get to our website could schedule appointments directly
Unknown:with our musicians, with a writer with with a with an
Unknown:artist and work with the with them through zoom. And that
Unknown:allowed us to support people all over the country that were
Unknown:isolated, was mostly patients that were at home that weren't
Unknown:really that weren't in hospitals, because most of the
Unknown:patients that are in hospitals, really feel crappy. And they're
Unknown:not like, it's why we like walk in their rooms because they
Unknown:don't have the bandwidth to or the energy to go on a website
Unknown:and sign up for time. Like you could only do that if they had
Unknown:help. Yeah. And then we we supported different we provided
Unknown:artists for different support groups around the country that
Unknown:were virtual, that were struggling with maintaining
Unknown:engagement, because people were dealing with Zoom fatigue in a
Unknown:really serious way. But they really needed community because
Unknown:that that that support group was their lifeline. And so they
Unknown:bring us in to to bring some fun and joy and something new to re
Unknown:engage people. And we also started a podcast, during this
Unknown:time to help elevate some of the amazing stories and research
Unknown:that's being done in the field of arts and health. You know,
Unknown:we're not the only group that does this type of work. There's
Unknown:lots of groups around the country that do that are doing
Unknown:such beautiful, amazing work. But yeah, we were out of the
Unknown:hospital for 14 months. And marginal there. Yeah, about 13
Unknown:and a half, 14 months. But we were able to go back in earlier
Unknown:this year. And it's been this explosion of of growth because
Unknown:there's this explosion of need. I mean, the need was always
Unknown:there but people are like more aware of the need because we all
Unknown:collectively have experienced what it's like to be stuck in a
Unknown:box by yourself for long periods of time. And the burden the
Unknown:anxiety, the depression the the toll that that takes on our
Unknown:mental, physical, emotional health. And so they're like, oh,
Unknown:yeah, this sucks. So
Unknown:yeah, I would imagine if nothing else, people became more
Unknown:empowered to just say that it sucks, right? I mean, like
Unknown:everybody experienced it. And so everyone can relate to it. We're
Unknown:not all going through a cancer diagnosis or in the hospital,
Unknown:but at least everybody has a sense now of what it means to be
Unknown:isolated to not be able to see your family and your friends and
Unknown:get that that human interaction that we all live for.
Unknown:Yep. And not have access to the arts. Yeah, yeah. No concerts?
Unknown:No. Um, no theater. No, you know, Dancehall is no, you know,
Unknown:any of those things that we use to connect with each other. None
Unknown:of that.
Unknown:Yeah, it's weird. So, I, we've recently gone to two concerts.
Unknown:The first two since post pit, I wouldn't even tell why she
Unknown:didn't use the term post pandemic, but since lockdowns
Unknown:and things and they were both outdoor concerts in an
Unknown:amphitheater, and they required COVID vaccination to even get in
Unknown:probably a safe environment as you're gonna possibly be in and
Unknown:I have now developed me, I've like nothing, knock on wood,
Unknown:nothing wrong with me health wise, other than just, you know,
Unknown:age related degradation of myself. I have developed social
Unknown:anxiety, like I'm comfortable being there, I'm like, I get
Unknown:there. And I'm, I look at everybody like is that the guy
Unknown:that's gonna cough on me? Is that the guy that and it's like,
Unknown:I don't want to be that person. Oh, and it's like, and I sit
Unknown:there and go, um, you know, I don't think I really have any
Unknown:mental health issues. But man, it did affect me in that way. I
Unknown:can't imagine dealing with then a debilitating disease diagnosis
Unknown:at the same time. How hard that would have to be. It's just it's
Unknown:staggering to me to think that way.
Unknown:Yeah, my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer last year and
Unknown:middle of all this. That was fun. Yeah. It was, it was also
Unknown:really interesting, really experiencing cancer from the
Unknown:perspective of a family member, a family caregiver. And it gave
Unknown:me a whole other level of appreciation for what we do.
Unknown:Because I know like, all you know, all the like, you know,
Unknown:how to be empathetic and hold space for people when they're
Unknown:when they're suffering and to. You know, I know that all like
Unknown:the quote, right things to do. But man, when it's your when
Unknown:it's your mom, when it's your loved one, you're dealing with
Unknown:your own crap, too. Yeah. And I felt that, like, I need her to
Unknown:feel better, so that I don't feel as crappy. And that made me
Unknown:really, like I said, Really, a new level of appreciation for
Unknown:what we do. Because I think sometimes when we go in as
Unknown:strangers, like, there's kind of this clean slate, I don't have
Unknown:any agenda for you, I don't need you to be happy or sad for me.
Unknown:I'm just here to hold space for you where you are, like that how
Unknown:important community is around people that are dealing with
Unknown:serious illness. I think sometimes people are scared when
Unknown:someone in their community is diagnosed with a serious
Unknown:illness, because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing, or I
Unknown:that's uncomfortable, or what if I do something stupid, like
Unknown:whatever. And so they don't show up. And we need to show up for
Unknown:people and families when they're going through this because
Unknown:there's some sometimes a role that you can play as a friend,
Unknown:as a community member, that is, might not be immediately
Unknown:accessible for someone that's really close to them. And, and
Unknown:same thing, people that are really close to that person they
Unknown:they can show up for for a patient in a way that no one
Unknown:else can. So everyone plays a role. And we just need to have
Unknown:first I think we need to educate people better about suffering
Unknown:and about how to how to hold place for suffering, the
Unknown:inevitability of suffering, like, we're all going to die
Unknown:like this is just a thing that but we pretend it doesn't exist.
Unknown:And then when it happens, we're like, shocked. Yeah, it's like,
Unknown:well, we've really failed. Society has really failed you
Unknown:if, if when bad things happen, it shocks us, like what in the
Unknown:world has has made you think that that nothing bad can ever
Unknown:happen? Or the evil one you're you're not and I think we're we
Unknown:have this privilege in our you know, in middle class America of
Unknown:kind of being insulated from, from suffering and so that when
Unknown:it does happen, we're completely ill equipped and I think we have
Unknown:a lot to learn from people of color that are constantly in
Unknown:states of dealing with oppression and suffering people
Unknown:in in different patient populations and survivors of of
Unknown:illness of horrific things. I think we have a lot to learn
Unknown:From from them, so that we're more prepared to face hard
Unknown:things that will never be happen in our lives.
Unknown:Going back to something you talked about earlier with the
Unknown:example of Gracie. And I'm sure there's probably not the only
Unknown:one or I guess it's not the only one, how difficult is it to deal
Unknown:with that patient when when they when they say they're goodbye,
Unknown:when they're when you know, you've helped and you've know,
Unknown:you've, you've been there for them. But then there's that
Unknown:moment when she's going to hospice, and she's not coming
Unknown:back. And that's got to be a really hard thing in terms of
Unknown:dealing with grief, because you've invested time in a
Unknown:relationship and it was a relationship. But that's got to
Unknown:be a very difficult thing to deal with.
Unknown:Yeah, and yeah, where to start to answer this question. So many
Unknown:layers, that's, um, well, first off, we work with other patient
Unknown:populations besides cancer, but with our cancer populations.
Unknown:That patients that are in my backup, most cancers treated
Unknown:outpatient now, you go in and out of a clinic to receive
Unknown:infusions, mostly or at home. So patients that are admitted to
Unknown:the hospital are either dealing with a complication with severe
Unknown:side effects with metastatic disease with more serious
Unknown:diagnoses. So there's about a 70% mortality rate on our
Unknown:oncology units. So 70% of the patients that we work with
Unknown:eventually die from their cancers. And that's incredibly
Unknown:challenging. Yeah, I can't imagine a lot of the focus of
Unknown:the training that we do with our artists is how do you live in
Unknown:this in this space, without it, destroying you, and, and being,
Unknown:like flooding out and being toxic in your personal life,
Unknown:because that's a skill, that's a skill that you have to learn.
Unknown:And the first, like, eight months that I was doing this
Unknown:work regularly, I pretty much cried every day, whether I was
Unknown:in the hospital or not, like there was just this. And some of
Unknown:that was it, there was connections to my own trauma
Unknown:that I was having to face every time I went in, like sometimes I
Unknown:would call my mom on my way to the hospital, like on the edge
Unknown:of the panic attack, like trying to like help let her breathe
Unknown:with me and maybe sing a song together or something to help me
Unknown:regulate my nervous system. So that I could, so I can be
Unknown:present when I do go in and work with patients, I'm not bringing
Unknown:my own junk with me, but then also having to learn how to
Unknown:leave it out the door. So it's this combination of constantly
Unknown:having to deal with your own crap by constantly having
Unknown:because it brings up stuff that's in you, that that is
Unknown:triggered by that environment. So I, through many years of
Unknown:counseling, to to work through some of my own traumas so that I
Unknown:couldn't go into that space without having a panic attack.
Unknown:It doesn't make it easy, but it makes it doable. And but it's
Unknown:this it's this double edged sword again, it's this paradox
Unknown:where it's the most it's the hardest work and it's also the
Unknown:most beautiful work. I mean, the the sacredness of walking that
Unknown:thin space with people when they're deep asking questions
Unknown:dealing with questions of their mortality and of their faith and
Unknown:belief of love in family. Were really all the can I use
Unknown:profanity? We're all the bullshit is just stripped away.
Unknown:You know, I I like to say that like bullshit dies. A quick,
Unknown:painful death on the oncology. Yeah, cuz it just, it just
Unknown:strips it away to your to like, what is the raw core essence of
Unknown:being alive and being human? Yeah. And when it's all stripped
Unknown:away. The thing that I found that, you know, I've seen such
Unknown:deep pain and I've experienced so much loss. I've known
Unknown:hundreds and hundreds of people in my life that have died. I've
Unknown:seen the depths of pain. And what I've found is that love
Unknown:runs even deeper. That love is deeper than even the deepest
Unknown:sorrow. And that's a gift that you You wouldn't necessarily
Unknown:understand and internalize on such a deep level. And once you
Unknown:see it, yeah, lets you see it with all everything stripped
Unknown:away and at the core at the bare bones, we're here to love. Yeah,
Unknown:that's what we're designed for we're, we're here to, you know,
Unknown:learn to love ourselves, others and our Creator. Like, that's
Unknown:how we, that's how we live in, in freedom and in, in in harmony
Unknown:with with our worlds.
Unknown:And it's but unfortunately, we're very much attached to, to
Unknown:an end, not an in with, understandably very attached to
Unknown:things in our world that maybe don't matter as much. And when
Unknown:they're stripped away, it's incredibly painful. So going in
Unknown:to a hospital and forming a relationship, forming
Unknown:relationships with people that you know, are probably going to
Unknown:die. It takes courage every time, it takes courage to step
Unknown:in and say I'm, it is worth the risk to enter into alongside
Unknown:this person and walk with them wherever their journey may take
Unknown:them, that it's worth the rest because love is worth the risk.
Unknown:So you obviously are a singer and your voice was beautiful.
Unknown:And you saying earlier here? Are you doing the charity work or
Unknown:the hearts need arts work full time? Is it part time? Are you
Unknown:do you have a singing and music career that goes in parallel to
Unknown:this?
Unknown:Yeah, so um, so after college, I spent many years singing
Unknown:professionally and I did musical theater and a little bit of
Unknown:opera and some solo work and recorded a couple things like
Unknown:recording was never like really my favorite thing. I love live
Unknown:music. And so did that for many years. And in the early days of
Unknown:when I it was just me kind of going to the hospital, I would
Unknown:bring like caskmates from shows I was in or bandmates or
Unknown:whatever. And we would do little vignettes on the show. Yeah, we
Unknown:will put that we put on tape, we put our chairs in the hallway.
Unknown:And we call them Porter concerts. We still do art scene
Unknown:art. Um, but yeah, so I was for many years, I was doing it. Kind
Unknown:of at the same time. I'm also a voice teacher and I have been
Unknown:for many years. And that's kind of my first love, I love. I love
Unknown:helping kids discover their voices. It's such a profoundly
Unknown:spiritually transformative experience when it happens when
Unknown:you free someone's voice from from the stress and the trauma
Unknown:and the pain that we so much so often holds in our voices. And
Unknown:then when I get when it's freed, and they, they figure out how to
Unknown:use their voice and express themselves through music, it's,
Unknown:it's, I love it, I love it, I still do it. So I still teach.
Unknown:But as I was working in the hospital, I just felt more and
Unknown:more called like, this is where I'm supposed to be. And it just
Unknown:was my favorite place to sing like it made every other
Unknown:performance I did seem gray. Like it was like being in boxing
Unknown:in the hospital was like Technicolor, and everywhere else
Unknown:was gray. And I was that was a cue for me. So I really like
Unknown:only seeing in the hospital now. Well I take the back I'm wearing
Unknown:a scarf today because I am singing at an event. And it was
Unknown:either curlers or the scarf that you're gonna see with the scarf.
Unknown:Um, so it's just here in there that I performed in public. But
Unknown:um, but yeah, I singing in the hospital, and it challenged me
Unknown:as a musician in kind of surprising ways. And I was
Unknown:classically trained, and like I said, did a lot of musical
Unknown:theater singing in church growing up. So that was more
Unknown:kind of what I had in my repertoire. But that's not
Unknown:necessarily that's not music, that's really music that
Unknown:connects with everyone, like people have different musical
Unknown:tastes. So I had to retrain my voice to learn how to sing
Unknown:different styles of music, I had to learn different styles of
Unknown:music. I don't necessarily do them like amazingly but I know
Unknown:enough to kind of get by so that I could respond to requests from
Unknown:patients like what kind of music connects with you because the
Unknown:music that to patient preferred music is kind of the term in
Unknown:this in this field. It it has a different effect than listening
Unknown:to unfamiliar music. And there's benefits to both but they're
Unknown:different. But the sense of kind of comfort and connection and
Unknown:that sense of feeling seen and heard really comes from someone
Unknown:standing in front of you and singing when your favorite songs
Unknown:you love. So there's a quote by arneg arburg Houston Author and
Unknown:he says that, to love a person is to learn the song that is in
Unknown:their hearts, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten.
Unknown:That's what we get to do.
Unknown:Well, I'm gonna have to take that one to heart, my wife and I
Unknown:have vastly different tastes and music and a lot of ways. And so,
Unknown:like she'll say, Oh, these are my favorite singers are like, I
Unknown:don't even know who they are. So I'm gonna have to figure out and
Unknown:I'm gonna learn, and I'm the world's worst singer. So me
Unknown:learning them and then singing them would not be a good thing
Unknown:either.
Unknown:I think it's metaphorical. But it's like literal,
Unknown:better, better. I'll hit I'll hit play on on my on my iPhone
Unknown:and just didn't stream it to our it will be fine. Perfect. At the
Unknown:end of every podcast, what I'm trying to do is ask people some
Unknown:probing questions a little bit to just learn about them
Unknown:separately. So first one I want to ask you is, what's your
Unknown:proudest moment?
Unknown:Oh, my gosh, you just got to spring that question. Yeah. Let
Unknown:me just throw it out there. My proudest moment? Mmm hmm.
Unknown:My proudest moment is also kind of tied up with kind of one of
Unknown:my most shameful moment moments. And it's gonna get kind of deep,
Unknown:are we? Are we good? Yeah, that's
Unknown:fine. Actually, my second question was, What's your
Unknown:biggest regret? So maybe this is one answer to both those
Unknown:questions.
Unknown:We'll see. Yeah. Um, so when I was dealing, when I, like I
Unknown:said, when I was going through it, it was just myself and I was
Unknown:going to the hospital, and it was triggering all that trauma
Unknown:I, during that period, my husband went on a deployment, or
Unknown:I had I had, I had a health challenge. And what that landed
Unknown:me was surgery in the hospital. And then, soon after that, my
Unknown:husband went on deployment, so I was alone. And I had been
Unknown:through this medical thing that had triggered like everything.
Unknown:So everything was bubbling up to the surface. And I, I had a
Unknown:complete mental breakdown. And I was like, my body shut down. I
Unknown:couldn't do anything like, my body was like in, you know,
Unknown:you're gonna deal with all the stuff that you have ignored for
Unknown:all of these years. 10 years later, it's and that's actually
Unknown:a common experience for survivors. That brown that seven
Unknown:to 10 year point, there's often a resurgence, like a reemergence
Unknown:of this past trauma that says like, Okay, now you get to deal
Unknown:with me remember me? Yeah. Right. And so I found a really
Unknown:good psychologist. And we were going through all the things,
Unknown:and God really speaks to me and metaphor and in through images,
Unknown:and little visions and things. And at one point, in the
Unknown:therapy, we were kind of started trying to get to the root of
Unknown:things, because it's not when you're dealing with trauma. It's
Unknown:not just like the big tree trauma. It's also like little T
Unknown:trauma in like, childhood stuff, like all the things like it's
Unknown:all connected, right? And I am, this image that I had in my head
Unknown:was I was this little girl in a shack in the woods that I the
Unknown:shack that I kind of built myself in Lean tos. And it's
Unknown:where all the things about myself that I felt were most
Unknown:shameful, and unacceptable. That's where I put all those
Unknown:things. And in my, in my vision, um, Jesus came and knocked on
Unknown:the door, and asked to come in. And that was one of the most
Unknown:like that sense of shame and fear. He was like, right on it.
Unknown:And I think my proudest moment was when I said, Yes, you can
Unknown:come in. And he just came in and sat with me. Looked around. We
Unknown:dealt with all the things in the room, and then he led me out and
Unknown:took me to his mansion, to my new room that he had built for
Unknown:me. And I think I, I say that's my proudest moment, because I
Unknown:think our proudest moments come when we say yes to doing
Unknown:something hard. And that was probably one of my harder
Unknown:moments. And I'm grateful I said, Yes.
Unknown:So going back to the other question, any big regret
Unknown:something a bit or something that you'd like to have a do
Unknown:over?
Unknown:Oh, okay. This is also emotional. I know exactly what
Unknown:this one is. Because it it is kind of an undercurrent In my
Unknown:life and continues to influence my decisions and how I interact
Unknown:in relationships today. But when I was going through treatments,
Unknown:I made a really good friend, who was also a survivor and name was
Unknown:Brittany. And we connected. Like we, you know, this intense
Unknown:shared experience that we had was a real bonding experience.
Unknown:And we were part of a group together that with an
Unknown:organization that brought teens and young adults with cancer
Unknown:together to do arts, and we would share stories that way
Unknown:through to with each other, and we were really close and her
Unknown:cancer came back. And it was her second recurrence. And I was
Unknown:really busy with school and starting college and like all
Unknown:the things going on in my life, and I would see her
Unknown:occasionally, but she was also kind of really private when she
Unknown:wasn't feeling well. And one day, her and her dad called me
Unknown:and she I knew she had been admitted to the hospital. And he
Unknown:said, You should come, you should come now. And so my mom
Unknown:and I got in a car and we drove to Lucile Packard Children's
Unknown:Hospital. And um
Unknown:I showed up on the floor. Now, of course, Brittany. And she had
Unknown:died 15 minutes before I got there.
Unknown:And this idea that we should never wait to show up for people
Unknown:that we love and tell them how much we love them.
Unknown:Because we never have tomorrow promised. And that gets
Unknown:reinforced every day in the hospital. We may work with a
Unknown:patient and expect to, oh, tomorrow I'll bring you that
Unknown:thing or do that thing or whatever. And then the next day
Unknown:they're gone. Or they're not feeling well or like things can
Unknown:change so quickly. And we don't have as much control as we think
Unknown:we don't know as much as we think. So that biggest regret
Unknown:has definitely fueled a lot of how I live my life now. Well,
Unknown:we're trying to I'm not perfect.
Unknown:So one more question. Hopefully I won't make you cry with this
Unknown:one. Who inspires you?
Unknown:Oh, gosh, so many people. So many people inspire me
Unknown:ah
Unknown:I, I joke that it takes you know, I I'm kind of in front of
Unknown:my organization, and I'm out talking about it and face and
Unknown:all the things but what people don't see is there's like,
Unknown:dozens of people behind me hoping to prop me up and like,
Unknown:listen to me when I'm crying and things. It takes a lot to keep
Unknown:me going. Um, and I cache. I'm inspired by my husband. He is
Unknown:how do I describe it? He is the most emotionally intelligent
Unknown:person I think I've ever met. But when you meet him, he's kind
Unknown:of just like this goofy, silly guy and that everyone kind of
Unknown:connects with and likes and you wouldn't necessarily know that
Unknown:there is that depth there. Once you really get to know him. But
Unknown:there's this also sense of self sacrifice and service that he he
Unknown:commits to every day for the people that he loves. And he
Unknown:shows up when people are dealing with hard things he put he picks
Unknown:up the slack when when I'm busy and can't He takes care of our
Unknown:son and he he inspires me every day his love for me and for his
Unknown:family. It inspires me every day and it's it's really the
Unknown:foundation nothing that hurts my heart would not exist without
Unknown:without my husband's love for me.
Unknown:That's great. So to close it out here. Can you tell my listeners
Unknown:or give them some insight into ways they can help their you
Unknown:know where can they go? Learn More, what can they do to help?
Unknown:Sure. So a great place to start is to go to our website
Unknown:heartsine art.org. We're based in San Antonio, but we're now
Unknown:serving people all over the country, particularly healthcare
Unknown:staff right now. And burnout is super high. We're almost two
Unknown:years into the pandemic. And there is a severe health care
Unknown:worker shortage, that is really kind of the our next healthcare
Unknown:crisis and they need our support. We have a program
Unknown:called our gratitude Graham's program where healthcare workers
Unknown:can enroll in our websites. And they get regular emails from our
Unknown:artists, musicians, writers, with a little song or inspiring
Unknown:quotes or props, or like little art prompts that they can do
Unknown:with like a pen and paper. But we can we pair those with
Unknown:messages a thanks and gratitude from people in the community. So
Unknown:you can actually go to our website and write a letter to
Unknown:healthcare worker, and we'll pass that along. And that's a
Unknown:way that you can tangibly get involved. But then also, if you
Unknown:have the financial means to support that we one of our core,
Unknown:a core part of our mission is providing meaningful work
Unknown:opportunities for artists, which artists have been, like their
Unknown:whole, all their economic opportunities, were completely
Unknown:blown up over the during the pandemic, and we were the only
Unknown:paycheck for many of them for a significant period of time. And
Unknown:the only way we're able to do that is because of people that,
Unknown:that support us financially and support us each month, you can
Unknown:actually support, you can go through our artists and actually
Unknown:pick one to support and you get mess, you get stories, each
Unknown:month of impact that they've made in the hospital because of
Unknown:your support. So if you like feeling connected to this kind
Unknown:of work, those are two ways that you can do it. And but then also
Unknown:just very practically in your own life. challenge that I would
Unknown:give you is that we give a challenge that we give to our
Unknown:artists is learn to hold space for yourself in your own pain,
Unknown:so that you can more effectively hold space for others in their
Unknown:pain without judgment and without trying to change them.
Unknown:Because I think if more of us were able to do that we would
Unknown:have a much more loving and compassionate world.
Unknown:Thank you so much. I appreciate Oh,
Unknown:in our podcast, oh my God. Oh, yeah. All right. Go for it, my
Unknown:staff would be really mad. So are you don't
Unknown:mention your podcast on a podcast that's like, it's
Unknown:obvious.
Unknown:If you're interested in like learning how the arts benefit
Unknown:our health and stories of people who have used it to transform
Unknown:their lives, research, Doc, researchers, doctors, amazing
Unknown:stories. You can check out our podcast arts for the health of
Unknown:it. We're on all the platforms. But we I think it's very
Unknown:entertaining and educational. So and that's what we're told it is
Unknown:to so it's not just me, but arts or the health of it, you can
Unknown:check out our podcast.
Unknown:Great, thank you. I'm glad you remembered that piece of what I
Unknown:did to prove what a bad host I am for my co host would be
Unknown:really mad at me. Well in a bad host at this and for not
Unknown:prompting you for it either. So we'll we'll we'll equally share
Unknown:the blame. So thank you so much for for joining me really
Unknown:appreciate it. Wonderful to meet you. I'm so impressed and
Unknown:inspired by what it is that you're doing to help people and
Unknown:keep it up.
Unknown:Thank you. Thanks. Honored to be here. Thank you